Okay? Liquid rocks. STEPHANIE TAM: Can the tree feel you ripping the roots out like that? But it didn't happen. They learned something. SUZANNE SIMARD: You do. It's now the Wood Wide Web? Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. But we are in the home inspection business. ROBERT: say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. They have to -- have to edit in this together. ROBERT: And Monica wondered in the plant's case MONICA GAGLIANO: If there was only the fan, would the plant ROBERT: Anticipate the light and lean toward it? MONICA GAGLIANO: So actually, I think you were very successful with your experiment. Jad and Robert, theyare split on this one. I'm 84. The fungus has this incredible network of tubes that it's able to send out through the soil, and draw up water and mineral nutrients that the tree needs. In my brain. And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. Wait a second. If you have this kind of license, then you are only allowed to grow up to that certain height; if . But they do have root hairs. So I don't have an issue with that. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. What was your reaction when you saw this happen? And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? This is very like if you had a little helmet with a light on it. ROBERT: She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. ROBERT: Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? Just a boring set of twigs. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. And so of course, that was only the beginning. I don't know if you're a bank or if you're an -- so it's not necessarily saying, "Give it to the new guy." And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. These guys are actually doing it." Verified account Protected Tweets @ Protected Tweets @ They can't photosynthesize. And when you measure them, like one study we saw found up to seven miles of this little threading What is this thing? But we are in the home inspection business. They're one of our closest relatives, actually. But they do have root hairs. And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. And it's more expensive. JAD: So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. Can Robert get Jad to join the march? ROBERT: And I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. I don't really need it all right now. That's the place where I remember things. They still remembered. So its resources, its legacy will move into the mycorrhizal network into neighboring trees. And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. But she had a kind of, maybe call it a Jigs-ian recollection. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, mimosa has been one of the pet plants, I guess, for many scientists for, like, centuries. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. Tubes. That apparently -- jury's still out -- are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. In this story, a dog introduces us to a strange creature that burrows . ROBERT: So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. Yeah. Just for example JENNIFER FRAZER: Let's say it's -- times are good. The same one that are used in computers like, you know, really tiny. Don't interrupt. It didn't seem to be learning anything. That's a -- learning is something I didn't think plants could do. So she decided to conduct her experiment. Well, people have been measuring this in different forests and ecosystems around the world, and the estimate is anywhere from 20 to 80 percent will go into the ground. So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. St. Andrew's Magazine Dr. Aatish Bhatia Inspires Students & Faculty. ROBERT: And we dropped it once, and twice. So you can get -- anybody can get one of these plants, and we did. SUZANNE SIMARD: Would just suck up through photosynthesis. Is that what -- is that what this? MONICA GAGLIANO: So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. Like, from the trees perspective, how much of their sugar are they giving to the fungus? Like, the plant is hunting? ROBERT: And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. MONICA GAGLIANO: Not really. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. ROBERT: And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. ], [ALVIN UBELL: Maria Mata -- Maria Matasar ], [LARRY UBELL: Maria Matasar-Padilla is our Managing Director. Maybe just a tenth the width of your eyelash. JAD: Wait a second. I mean, I think there's something to that. And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? I think there is something like a nervous system in the forest, because it's the same sort of large network of nodes sending signals to one another. ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. Parsons' Observational Practices Lab Talking About Seeing Symposium. Are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. That's amazing and fantastic. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. JENNIFER FRAZER: They're some other kind of category. But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. Never mind.". JAD: You're doing the -- like, okay first it was the roots under the ground all connected into a whole hive thing. Exactly. LARRY UBELL: Me first. So just give me some birds. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. MONICA GAGLIANO: My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" Hey, it's okay. ROBERT: He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. And lignin is full of nitrogen, but also compounds like nitrogen is important in DNA, right? It's as if the individual trees were somehow thinking ahead to the needs of the whole forest. Maybe there's some kind of signal? So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. That is correct. No, it's because it's like every time I close my eyes, you're coming at it from a different direction. In the state of California, a medicinal marijuana cultivation license allows for the cultivation of up to 99 plants. My name is Monica Gagliano. Me first. And then someone has to count. Nothing delicious at all.". ROBERT: Sounds, yeah. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. I mean, what? He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in And toilet paper. JAD: So today we have a triptych of experiments about plants. I don't know. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. Let him talk. The bell, the meat and the salivation. And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. Connecting your house to the main city water line that's in the middle of the street. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. ROBERT: Okay. Like, the tree was, like, already doing that stuff by itself, but it's the fungus that's doing that stuff? Well, it depends on who you ask. Same as the Pavlov. Is it ROBERT: This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. The Ubells see this happening all the time. And again. ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. ALVIN UBELL: Testing one, two. And then all the other ones go in the same direction. Ring, meat, eat. Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. And again. ANNIE: Yeah. Dedicated to enhancing the lives of the citizens in the communities it serves by responding to their need to be engaged, educated, entertained & enlightened. So now, they had the radioactive particles inside their trunks and their branches. Or even learn? It's about how plants learn, or adapt, or even listen, the way humans do (though scientists really don't seem to know how). Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? And does it change my place in the world? SUZANNE SIMARD: It's just this incredible communications network that, you know, people had no idea about in the past, because we couldn't -- didn't know how to look. I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. JENNIFER FRAZER: Then he would bring them the meat and he would ring a bell. Picasso! Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. It should have some. They can go north, south, east, west, whatever. So if a beetle were to invade the forest, the trees tell the next tree over, "Here come the --" like Paul Revere, sort of? SUZANNE SIMARD: Yes, that seems to be what happens. MONICA GAGLIANO: My reaction was, "Oh ****!" You got the plant to associate the fan with food. ROBERT: Then she placed the fan right next to the light so that MONICA GAGLIANO: The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. Yeah. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. JAD: Yes. ROBERT: Oh, so this is, like, crucial. ROBERT: And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. And it's good it was Sunday. AATISH BHATIA: So this is our plant dropper. Pics! Same as the Pavlov. That's a parade I'll show up for. Hey, it's okay. Exactly. [ROY HALLING: This is Roy Halling, researcher specializing in fungi at the New York Botanical Garden. Robert, I have -- you know what? On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of ROBERT: And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah, it might run out of fuel. I don't know. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. Minerals from the soil. Picasso! 0:00. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. ROBERT: They shade each other. ], Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrow, David Gebel. And what she discovered is that all these trees, all these trees that were of totally different species were sharing their food underground. So we went back to Monica. She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. So they didn't. ROBERT: Apparently, bears park themselves in places and grab fish out of the water, and then, you know, take a bite and then throw the carcass down on the ground. If the -- if the tube system is giving the trees the minerals, how is it getting it, the minerals? ROBERT: Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. JAD: Would you say that the plant is seeing the sun? MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly, which is pretty amazing. He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. I mean, I -- it's a kind of Romanticism, I think. What is it? ROBERT: They're father and son. That is definitely cool. We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz ROBERT: Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. ROBERT: All right, that's it, I think. LARRY UBELL: We are the principals of Accurate Building Inspectors of Brooklyn, New York. ROBERT: And on this particular day, she's with the whole family. And it begins to look a lot like an airline flight map, but even more dense. Never mind.". ROBERT: And she says she began to notice things that, you know, one wouldn't really expect. MONICA GAGLIANO: All of them know already what to do. This -- this actually happened to me. ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. JENNIFER FRAZER: So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. Now the plants if they were truly dumb, they'd go 50/50. In 1997, a couple of scientists wrote a paper which describes how fungi Jennifer says that what the tubes do is they worm their way back and forth through the soil until they bump into some pebbles. I thought -- I thought tree roots just sort of did -- like, I thought -- I always imagined tree roots were kind of like straws. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? -- they spring way up high in the air. There was a healthier community when they were mixed and I wanted to figure out why. That is correct. ROBERT: So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. She actually trained this story in a rather elaborate experimental setup to move away from the light and toward a light breeze against all of its instincts. The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Bethel Habte, Tracie Hunte, Matt Kielty ], [ALVIN UBELL: Matt Kielly. So it wasn't touching the dirt at all. ], [ROY HALLING: With help from Alexandra Leigh Young, Jackson Roach and Charu Sinha. This is the headphones? ROBERT: So the roots can go either left or to the right. They still did not close when she dropped them. Same as the Pavlov. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world. ROBERT: So there is some water outside of the pipe. She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. And when they go in SUZANNE SIMARD: There is Jigs at the bottom of the outhouse, probably six feet down at the bottom of the outhouse pit. You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. But over the next two decades, we did experiment after experiment after experiment that verified that story. ROBERT: All right, that's it, I think. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. It's time -- time for us to go and lie down on the soft forest floor. ROBERT: I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans MONICA GAGLIANO: We are a little obsessed with the brain. ROBERT: For this part of our broadcast, I'd like to begin by imagining a tall, dark, dense, green forest. And he starts digging with his rake at the base of this tree. Testing one, two. Just for example Let's say it's -- times are good. Actually that's good advice for anyone. So let's go to the first. Like the bell for the dog. ROBERT: So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. It's okay. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org]. Or maybe it's the fungus under the ground is kind of like a broker and decides who gets what. It just kept curling. PETER LANDGREN: Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. It would be all random. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. Again. That was my reaction. JAD: Well, okay. ROBERT: So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. From Tree to Shining Tree. SUZANNE SIMARD: They start producing chemicals that taste really bad. So its resources, its legacy will move into the mycorrhizal network into neighboring trees. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? I mean, what? I think that's fair. Why waste hot water? Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? ALVIN UBELL: You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. Connecting your house to the main city water line that's in the middle of the street. And I know lots of kids do that, but I was especially ROBERT: I'm sorry? ROBERT: What do you mean? And then all of a sudden, she says she looks down into the ground and she notices all around them where the soil has been cleared away there are roots upon roots upon roots in this thick, crazy tangle. Her use of metaphor. So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, plants really like light, you know? And might as well start the story back when she was a little girl. ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. She went into the forest, got some trees. SUZANNE SIMARD: Not a basset hound, but he was a beagle. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. You mean you got down on all fours and just And so my mom always talks about how she had to constantly be giving me worm medicine because I was -- I always had worms. So the -- this branching pot thing. I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? JENNIFER FRAZER: Right? ROBERT: So that's what the tree gives the fungus. Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. Jad and Robert, theyare split on this one. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. ROBERT: How do you mean? ROBERT: Oh, so it says to the newer, the healthier trees, "Here's my food. ROY HALLING: It's just getting started. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. And she says this time they relaxed almost immediately. LARRY UBELL: All right, my hypothesis is that what happens is LARRY UBELL: Can I -- can I have a few minutes? MONICA GAGLIANO: Well, I created these horrible contraptions. [laughs] When I write a blog post, my posts that get the least traffic guaranteed are the plant posts. ROBERT: That there was a kind of a moral objection to thinking this way. He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. I mean, I think there's something to that. Princeton University News Transformations: Students find creativity at intersection of art and engineering. That's what she says. ROBERT: And look, and beyond that there are forests, there are trees that the scientists have found where up to 75 percent of the nitrogen in the tree turns out to be fish food. It was summertime. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. We're just learning about them now, and they're so interesting. And we were all like, "Oh, my goodness! Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. let's do it! Listen to Radiolab: "Smarty Plants" on Pandora - Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. ROBERT: So you just did what Pavlov did to a plant. JAD: Wait. Let him talk. I've always loved Radiolab. All in all, turns out one tree was connected to 47 other trees all around it. That apparently -- jury's still out. And it was almost like, let's see how much I have to stretch it here before you forget. ROBERT: Nothing happened at all. ROBERT: And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? Episodes. It's okay. Handheld? So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? Let me just back up for a second so that you can -- to set the scene for you. In this conversation. They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. JAD: What -- I forgot to ask you something important. ROBERT: That is correct. It's a family business. It was magic for me. JENNIFER FRAZER: Into which she put these sensitive plants. JAD: It was curling each time when it ROBERT: Every time. But what -- how would a plant hear something? And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. ROBERT: So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? I don't know yet. But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. ROBERT: She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. ROBERT: I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. This episode was produced by Annie McEwen. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. ROBERT: So let's go to the first. You got somewhere to go? The magnolia tree outside of our house got into the sewer pipes, reached its tentacles into our house and busted the sewage pipe. And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. Ring, meat, eat. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. They sort of put them all together in a dish, and then they walked away. And again. Smarty Plants--My Latest Guest Spot for Radiolab - Scientific American Blog Network COVID Health Mind & Brain Environment Technology Space & Physics Video Podcasts Opinion Store Knowledge within. She says we now know that trees give each other loans. SUZANNE SIMARD: It'll go, "Ick. Yes, because she knew that scientists had proposed years before, that maybe there's an underground economy that exists among trees that we can't see.
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